Kraak and Smaak are comprised of three friends from the Netherlands, Mark Kneppers, Wim Plug and Oscar de Jong. In the early ninetiesMark and Wim started out as DJs together. In 2003 they hooked up with multi-instrumentalist Oscar who had his own studio and they started working on making tracks together. At the point they were signed up to Jalapeno Records they actually had several potential names but Kraak and Smaak was the one that stuck.Contrary to popular misconception that it's a drug reference, the name refers to an expression in Dutch meaning crunch and taste... hence if something lacks Kraak and Smaak it's essentially dull and lifeless. An apt name indeed! With two LPs and an incredible portfolio of remixes, they have become standard bearers for funky organic electronic breakbeat. After their successful Boogie Angst LP from 2005 K&S have released their second LP Plastic People. There have been plenty of interviews with the guys about how they got together and so on so we decided to catch up with the guys about the nuts and bolts of how they do what they do!
Listen to: Kraak & Smaak 'Squeeze Me'
The first thing I'm curious about was what made three lads from Leiden decide to sign to a UK label? Well, at the beginning we just wanted to have fun making some tunes in the studio, but after making a couple we were quite excited and decided to send them around to some labels to see if they would be interested in doing a release. As DJ’s we played mostly UK or US tracks, so it was quite logical to send them to labels we we’re fans of butwithout expecting the immediate response of Jalapeno, who wanted to sign us overnight.
I kind of feel like the UK club scene has lost it's way a little at the moment. You guys play all over the world so where do feel are the most exciting places on the planet right now, both in terms of the club scene and the music being produced? The fun thing about playing everywhere and releasing all over the world is that you automatically meet up with likeminded people, either DJ’s, fans or producers, and whether in the UK, the US, Europe or Australia. In that case it doesn’t really matter where you play. We like to play in the US a lot as both our music and our DJ and live sets seem to get picked up as something new and exciting even more so than in the UK for example. Nowadays it’s a global scene and you pick out tracks for your DJ set that may originate from Brazil to Japan. Isn’t that great? But I can imagine that in the UK – as one the major countries in terms of dance music culture - it’s difficult to stay fresh over and over again and keep people interested. For us that sounds like an enormous luxury.
How do you perceive things to be changing in dance music at the moment and where do you see things heading? Apart from dubstep perhaps there have been no real new developments for a while. For us Drum & Bass felt like the last real innovation in dance music. Trends come and go; now it’s the 60s sound of Motown, Northern Soul, and maybe less explicit, the sound of 70s and 80s new wave etc. The big hypes of the last couple of years, electro-orientated stuff and minimal seem to become less popular. We like to play the oddbassline house, ‘Crunk’ and also Baltimore Beats track in our sets but we can’t imagine that these styles will develop into something that will survive in the long run -apart from the quality tracks that is of course. Most new genres will get picked up, hit the mainstream public in watered down form and will be spit out again after a while.
I've noticed many of your tracks are sample based but then presumably for copyright reasons you use sample replay services. (For the uninitiated this involves getting a recording specialist to accurately imitate the sample.) Is it frustrating having to do that? Hmm… maybe in the beginning it was. We just started out and it felt like we were the people responsible for finding these great riffs, vocals, whatever, which had never been used before. In the end we aren’t the original writers, so… Besides, for Mark and me at least, sampling was the first real way of making music without having to be able to play instruments, which was very liberating. We are much more conscious now and we try to use less of them – also from a copyright reasons point of view as it may cost us a lot of money. We try to involve more original vocalists and work with songwriters (see Ben Westbeech, Mark Brydon, Carmel and Dudley Perkins for example).
Have you ever had a sample that you just couldn't reproduce accurately enough to want to use? Sometimes we have multiple takes on replaying samples but up until now we have never dismissed one in the end. It can be a painstaking activity though, especially when it evolves around the sound and the atmosphere of a sample. It’s so difficult to reproduce sometimes. For the ‘Squeeze Me’ vocal we had about four versions made before we we’re happy enough.
Are there any samples out there that you wish you had got to first?!
Well, that would be almost every hip hop sample used from the late eighties to the middle of the nineties: those records made us first aware of the vast possibilities of sampling and the huge pool of great jazz, and funk music out there we didn’t know the existence of before. It made us huge collectors of these styles and we never stopped from there on. But if there would be one huge sample it would be James Brown’s ‘funky drummer’ drumbreak. It was so influential and still is, just listen to the whole Baltimore Beats hype. It’s the ultimate breakbeat!
I love the fact that for Boogie Angst you were still using an Atari computer, an early version of Cubase for sequencing, and an external hardware sampler. (For the vehicle enthusiasts amongst you that is the equivalent to still preferring the Ford Escort mark I for it's reliability and simplicity...pre electronic ignition, pre-ABS and pre complex fuel injection systems etc.) It's a testament to pitfalls of modern technology that you are using late 80s/early 90s technology and your music stands out as some of the best produced dance music in the world. Are you still using the Atari? Have you been tempted to try out any of the more recent sequencers and software instruments around at the moment?
Apart from the positive experiences we had with it we should remember that our old Atari had its pitfalls too – I think we replaced it at least twice during the first K&S production years. However it served our purposes then but in 2007 we decided to move forward and had a pc built for the studio. We do still use Cubase – but a newer version of course. Besides, we continue to use vintage synths and keys – and more and more so actually - for the warmth or the ‘phatness’ of the production. Your ordinary software plug-in still just can’t beat that original analogue sound at this point in time and at the moment we’re trying to get our hands on as much original equipment as possible. Seeing the Soulwax documentary on BBC television some time ago we realised though that we still have a long, long, long way to go. We are also thinking about buying an analogue mixing desk instead of the digital one we use now (or at least one that combines the two).
I've read that you reckon you've got 60,000 records between the three of you. As a self-confessed record nerd with a fraction of that number...I have to ask...where on earth do you find the space for them and how do you organise them?
Errr…. We all have moved recently, so our collections are seriously messed up at the moment. The only thing that saves us right now is visiting good record fairs as much as possible, buying collections and browsing through back alley record shops when we play abroad! But seriously, most of it is organised by genre and by label if possible. But we don’t live in enormous houses like Jamiroquai, so a good deal always ends up in piles and on the floor. Our studio – which used to be so spacey – has also already been turned into a record warehouse.
Let's talk about your new album. Boogie Angst in 2005 was noticeably sample based and seemed (to me) to be to be designed for DJs to get dancefloors rocking with a few beautiful downbeat tracks thrown in for good measure. Your new album 'Plastic People' seems to be more song based with more tracks featuring guest MCs and singers. Did you have the potential for live performance, more in your minds when recording this LP? Plastic People has always felt to us as a logical progression from Boogie Angst in terms of sound, composition, etc. It also didn’t feel right to make another BA this time around and what came out of our studio during the period afterwards apparently proved us right. Although we had some ‘second album syndrome’ problems, especially in finishing it, overall it was an unconscious development. Like you say, most of the BA tracks were already lying around for a while when we made the album – we already released a couple of EPs and didn’t originally set out to do a whole album. But it turned out real well the way it did, both as a dj compilation but also as an album you could listen to at home. The ones on PP came into being only during the last two years, still have that K&S sound, but together feel more like a ‘proper’ artist album than the first one.
What do you feel your mindset is when you are recording? Producers, DJs or live musicians? Do you have decide before you start whether you are going to design an LP for home listening, clubs or live performance, or do you try to make sure it ticks all the boxes? We are studio producers above all other things and we normally do not work conceptually, i.e. for DJ’s, home listening, etc. We just start out with a good idea and one track at the time (or more tracks simultaneously) without any idea of where things are going at first. Sometimes different songs get mixed up into a new one, vocal lines are switched between tunes, etc. There’s no saying where it may all lead to in the beginning… We do often take into account the DJ perspective when making tunes. It helps us with what’s important to a song in terms of sound and composition. But we are also more and more influenced by traditional and modern pop music. Whether a finished track will be played live is a totally separate issue: as performing live is something so different from studio production or DJ’ing, it has to prove itself. Some tracks work, some don’t, and if they are used, they will often be re-arranged for that purpose, through rehearsals with our band and our ideas what a live performance should be like. We do applaud the fact that more and more dance music is played live, this is a really good development.
How does the creative process work with you guys. What are the grains of sand that your pearls start to form around? Samples? Chord structures? Lyrics? That could be all three of them. Oscar could come up with a beat he made or a chord structure, Mark could come with a vocal sample or a riff, etc. etc. From there on we build it; first sound-wise and getting all the necessary elements in, and lastly composition-wise. We also try out tracks on the floor and listen to it on various speaker sets to see if it sticks. We have stored a vast amount of ideas, samples in our computer. It always starts very basic and simple. Sometimes, when the initial idea is good, a track will be more or less finished in no time. In other case elements could be stored away for a year before being used again. For every finished track there are at least a couple that are thrown away (at least for the time being).
I know Oscar is very much the engineer and keyboard supremo whilst Mark and Wim bring in a lot of ideas based on their work as DJs. How do you think other aspects of your personalities fit together? Is one of you say more perfectionist whilst another just wants to get on with it? Do you ever find yourselves disagreeing about the direction a particular tune should take?
Like you say, we bring in our own – different – personalities and backgrounds but that really works very well and we think even necessary. It’s not a fixed thing, but if one of us applies himself to developing the broad stroke of a track, the others will automatically focus more on the details. In that sense we complement each other all the time. This doesn’t mean that we don’t criticize each other – we discuss everything. Of course we have disagreements too; in that case we either compromise – if it makes sense for the song in question - or trust the judgement of the other(s).
The LP also features a version of Man of Constant Sorrow. What is it with Jalapeno and that track? Skeewiff have had a crack at it as well. It's been covered by everyone from Bob Dylan, Judy Collins, Peter Paul and Mary, Rod Stewart not to mention the Soggy Bottom Boys ! What led you to doing your own interpretation of that tune? We’re just enormous fans of that track and have loved it since we first heard it in the Cohen brothers movie. Actually it was made as a remix for the Skeewiff release but gota bit snowed under in the scheme of things. However, we got so many positive reactions on it that we decided to put it on the new album. It’s just a great song that can be put to use in every context, even that of K&S and Rod Stewart! Maybe we ought do to a version of Da Ya Think I'm Sexy? In the future…
One the tracks that I heard off the new LP that first got my attention was the promo of 'Cornered'. Deeply atmospheric and trancy with haunting clarinet (or is it oboe?). I just love it and it reminds me a lot of Nicodemus' 'Crazy Stranger'. Any plans for any remixes to add some weight to the beats? It’s a clarinet played by a fellow musician from our hometown. He plays trumpet, sax, trombone, everything! To us it has a Carl Craig-ish Detroit kind of atmosphere, so it would be great to have him do a remix. But we would also bow down gracefully for Ame, Cobblestone Jazz or Theo Parrish if they would be interested for that matter (yes please!)
It's got a little bit of an Eastern European or Arabic flavour to it? Are you finding yourselves broadening out in terms of musical influences? If so what genres would you love to explore that you haven't yet? If there are these influences we’re not really aware of it I must say. It’s just something that happens along the way. In the case of the clarinet, we just came up with the idea, which indeed has this Eastern Europan gypsy, Klezmer kind of vibe. For one thing, we are huge film and soundtrack fans, so that would be great to get our hands on. We also experiment a bit with genres like dubstep but, as with Drum & Bass for example, these are such specific genres and the producers are so well in tune with these styles, it’s very difficult to come up with something that makes the same mark.
'Ain't gonna take it no more' sounds like 21st century D-Train to me. Do you ever start out with a particular artist in mind and think let's do something in the style of....?
Generally not, we just make a first version of a track and if it needs vocals or a song structure we think about it and get in touch with the right person and see what comes back. Just recently however we made this great club track called ‘The Worm’, with Oscar’s vocals on it through a vocoder. But when listening to it seemed so fitting for Cameo because he had this same kind of voice, we decided to send it to Larry Blackmon. It didn’t happen in time for this album but we’ve got our fingers crossed for the future.
People associate you with I guess electronic dance music and breakbeat but amongst your early influences you cite a lot of early funk and soul like Parliament, Gil Scott Heron, Al Green, Bill Withers, as well as early hip hop. How do you feel these influences emerge most strongly in your work? On BA these influences were more ‘all over the place’, now they are more implicit on the new album – apart from Squeeze Me I guess, which is a straightforward funk track. But the funk, soul, jazz element – in general you might say black music - has always been important to us. Whether we make clubby music, downbeat music, electronic music, it ‘gots to have’ funk or soul in them, vocally, composition-wise, riffs, chords, the use of certain keyboards (Rhodes, Clavinet, etc.).
People associate you with I guess electronic dance music and breakbeat but amongst your early influences you cite a lot of early funk and soul like Parliament, Gil Scott Heron, Al Green, Bill Withers, as well as early hip hop. How do you feel these influences emerge most strongly in your work? On BA these influences were more ‘all over the place’, now they are more implicit on the new album – apart from Squeeze Me I guess, which is a straightforward funk track. But the funk, soul, jazz element – in general you might say black music - has always been important to us. Whether we make clubby music, downbeat music, electronic music, it ‘gots to have’ funk or soul in them, vocally, composition-wise, riffs, chords, the use of certain keyboards (Rhodes, Clavinet, etc.).
I noticed that you had recently done a film score. Is that a direction you plan to explore more. What else does the future hold for Kraak and Smaak? We hope to be able to start our own label in the future and release compilations and mix albums – would be great to make use of our large record collections even more! But after the release of the album we will focus first on playing as much as possible, either live or as DJ’s. We just did a US DJ tour and will go back later this summer for a couple of live dates. We’ll do UK, Europe and Australia this year too, and have some offers in from some major festivals. We’ve also heard that Jelly Jazz is the place to play on the South Coast so hopefully we can hook up a live date with you guys. Apart from that, we’re planning to do some more remixing but also already thinking about the next album. One of the reasons it took a while to release PP was that we played so much in the last couple of years.
bearers for funky organic electronic breakbeat. After their successful Boogie Angst LP from 2005 K&S have released their second LP Plastic People. There have been plenty of interviews with the guys about how they got together and so on so we decided to catch up with the guys about the nuts and bolts of how they do what they do!
.jpeg)
watered down form and will be spit out again after a while..jpeg)
software plug-in still just can’t beat that original analogue sound at this point in time and at the moment we’re trying to get our hands on as much original equipment as possible. Seeing the Soulwax documentary on BBC television some time ago we realised though that we still have a long, long, long way to go. We are also thinking about buying an analogue mixing desk instead of the digital one we use now (or at least one that combines the two).
eased a couple of EPs and didn’t originally set out to do a whole album. But it turned out real well the way it did, both as a dj compilation but also as an album you could listen to at home. The ones on PP came into being only during the last two years, still have that K&S sound, but together feel more like a ‘proper’ artist album than the first one.
the floor and listen to it on various speaker sets to see if it sticks. We have stored a vast amount of ideas, samples in our computer. It always starts very basic and simple. Sometimes, when the initial idea is good, a track will be more or less finished in no time. In other case elements could be stored away for a year before being used again. For every finished track there are at least a couple that are thrown away (at least for the time being).
so well in tune with these styles, it’s very difficult to come up with something that makes the same mark.
